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Episode 3: Bola Agbaje / Kanika Batra
Episode 3: Bola Agbaje / Kanika Batra
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Episode 3: Bola Agbaje / Kanika Batra
This is Orlando, a podcast about the history of women's writing from medieval times to the present. In today’s episode we talk with Kanika Batra about voices, sites, and subjects of contemporary drama.
We focus on the work of Bola Agbaje, a Black British-Nigerian playwright whose multiple and expansive cultural influences include her time spent in Nigeria and close family members, particularly her sisters, who live there. She came to fame with the debut of her play Gone Too Far! in 2007. She launched her career with the play at the Royal Court Theatre, part of its Young Writers Program, and has since collaborated with mainstream and experimental groups, such as the Tricycle Theatre, Talawa, Cardboard Citizens, and the Young Vic. Agbaje also is a screenwriter who has explored Nollywood tropes in her writing and has discussed, in interviews, the challenges of breaking into a new genre rooted elsewhere. She was elected to the Royal Society of Literature in 2018.
In this interview, Batra identifies several key issues at play in Agbaje’s writing, which illuminate intersections of the local and global along with various manifestations of Blackness in contemporary British culture. And she tells us why Agbaje’s play Detaining Justice, first produced in 2009, is a standout piece in the author’s body of work.
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Transcription
Karen Bourrier (00:16): I'm Karen Bourrier. Kathryn Holland (00:18): And I'm Kathryn Holland. This is Orlando, a podcast about the history of women's writing from medieval times to the present. In today's episode, we talk with Kanika Batra about voices, sites, and subjects of contemporary drama. Karen Bourrier (00:35): We focus on the work of Bola Agbaje, a Black British-Nigerian playwright whose multiple and expansive cultural influences include her time spent in Nigeria and close family members, particularly her sisters who live there. She came to fame with the debut of her play, Gone Too Far!, in 2007. She launched her career with the play at the Royal Court Theatre, part of its Young Writers Program, and has since collaborated with mainstream and experimental groups, such as the Tricycle Theatre, Talawa, Cardboard Citizens, and the Young Vic. Agbaje is also a screenwriter who has explored Nollywood tropes in her writing and has discussed, in interviews, the challenges of breaking into a new genre rooted elsewhere. She was elected to the Royal Society of Literature in 2018. Kathryn Holland (01:26): In this interview, Batra identifies several key issues at play in Agbaje’s writing, which illuminate intersections of the local and global along with various manifestations of Blackness in contemporary British culture. And she tells us why Agbaje’s play Detaining Justice, first produced in 2009, is a standout piece in the author’s body of work. Karen Bourrier (01:51): This is Orlando, a podcast about the history of women's writing from medieval times to the present. Karen Bourrier (02:10): Hi Kanika, it's so great to see you! Kathryn Holland (02:12): It's wonderful to see you, welcome. Kanika Batra (02:14): Hi there Karen and Kathryn, delighted to be here! Kathryn Holland (02:18): Thank you so much. What we would love to do is to jump in immediately to hear from you about today's author Bola Agbaje. Some listeners may be unfamiliar with Agbaje's work or even the kind of broader contemporary field of less prominent dramatists. We're going beyond in this podcast superstars like Zadie Smith, for instance. Can you tell us about who Bola Agbaje is and what she writes? Kanika Batra (02:45): So Bola Agbaje, she's a British Nigerian dramatist and over the years, over the past 15 or so years, her work has been quite regularly performed in various venues and in the UK, both in mainstream theaters, as well as experimental small theaters. And when she writes, uh, she is often writing about cultural differences between first and second generation Black British people, particularly young people. So she has been writing since 2007, and that's when her play Gone Too Far! Was workshopped and performed by the Royal Court, uh, at a festival for young writers. Now, three of her many plays: Gone Too Far!, Off the Endz, and Belong, they are usually talking about existing rivalries and bonds between Black men, either differentiated by age, nationality, or class position. And sometimes these young men are connected as siblings, friends, or they may live in the same location. Of these three plays, which are focused primarily on Black men, only the first one, Gone Too Far! Depicts the connections between, between British born people and those from other parts of the world in this case, Nigeria. Kanika Batra (04:09): Some of her plays are also talking about the clash between bourgeois aspirations and uh, a sort of stereotype criminalized Black masculinity. Since 2016, she has been focusing perhaps as a response to MeToo, she has been focusing on the various cultural/social factors complicating the lives of young girls. Again, the focus is on people living in and around London, so I think what I find particularly relevant about Agbaje is the sort of intersection that she brings in between the local and the global. A wonderful play is Detaining Justice and it's about the immigration system. And most of her plays are talking about a very specific location in London, but sometimes other locations in Africa are also a point of reference in her work. Kathryn Holland (05:27): You mentioned just a moment ago that her career really launched in about 2007, um, with Gone Too Far! at the Royal Court Theatre uh and it really launched with a splash and she has gained quite a lot of attention and aclaim since then. What do you think excites audiences about her work? Kanika Batra (05:46): I think one of the things which excites people about her work is this sort of focus on the various manifestations of Blackness within the contemporary British scenario. So one of the ways in which these various connotations of Blackness play out is by looking at the various generations of Black people in England. So the first generation is the people who have arrived recently and they are still sort of finding their feet, getting adjusted to the environment they find themselves in, and sort of putting down roots. The second generation that is the children of the migrants are more acculturated into the British way of life -- in terms of language, in terms of behavior, in terms of the various signs of cultural experiences that they are exposed to, whether music or fashion or the street culture one finds in most big cities. Kanika Batra (07:04): So this is one aspect of British writing that she explores quite well! That there are various ways of being Black, but there isn't one way of seeking about Black British identity, you know. Blackness as sort of a composite cultural identity category can be manifested in various ways. It can be generational, it can be geographical, people from the Caribbean have a different relation to Blackness that people from Africa, for instance, it could also probably play out in the popular cultural choices that young people make. What kind of music do they listen to? What is their aesthetic as far as fashion goes? What are the food choices that they're making in their daily lives? So I think this is one of one of the most exciting aspects of her work to my mind. Kathryn Holland (08:13): I imagine all of these sort of issues in Agbaje's writing are tied in some ways to her own immediate cultural milieu. Do you see that when you think about the trajectory of her work? Karen Bourrier (08:27): Yeah, I would love to hear more about her background, her cultural milieu, how it ties into her work, is it often read as autobiographical? Kathryn Holland (08:36): Or not? Kanika Batra (08:37): Yes, this is definitely related to her own own upbringing and her own cultural background. So I think we can talk about cultural milieu in three different, productive ways. We can think of the family as part of the cultural milieu. We can think of transnational affiliations, and we can also think of local environments. So we, again, I talked briefly about the intersection of the local and the global, but I want to begin here by talking about her family. She has mentioned in several interviews that the inspiration for her plays is her immediate and extended family part of which is in Nigeria, in fact, Gone Too Far! was dedicated to her brother who was in prison at that time that she was writing the play. Karen Bourrier (09:32): Can I ask you, Kanika, what does your family think of her writing about them? That would be my family's nightmare, if I were to <laugh>. Or do we have any information about that? Kathryn Holland (09:42): I think she's spoken in interviews about having close relationships with her sisters? I've heard her speak about that. Kanika Batra (09:50): Right, and she finds the family quite supportive, I think, and of course there isn't a one-to-one correlation between the characters in the plays and the family members, of course. Karen Bourrier (10:06): Yeah, that's fair. Kanika Batra (10:06): So, while Gone Too Far! was dedicated to her brother who was in prison at that time, you know another play later on, Off the Endz, has a character who has been recently released from prison and is kind of trying to adjust back into normal life and and, whether he manages to do so or not is the focus of the play. So then, this is of course the family part of the cultural background, uh, but we also have to understand that the cultural milieu is larger than the family. So she, Agbaje, was born in London, she moved to Nigeria for two years when she was six. Kanika Batra (10:52): And she says that's where she met her two older sisters for the first time. So the recognition of family or the re-recognition of family came to a cross-border movement here. And then she returned back to England when she was eight. Karen Bourrier (11:13): Oh wow. Kanika Batra (11:14): So there is a lot going on here, you know, there is the immediate family, but there is also the family, which is thousands of miles away with whom she reconnects at the age of six. She's also heavily influenced, if we are talking of transnational influences, she's heavily influenced by Nollywood, which is the Nigerian film industry. In fact, some of her work has been adapted into film and she has drawn on Black, British, and Nollywood actors for these adaptations. She also claims that was approached by Nollywood directors and at some point she acknowledges that she was burned by what seemed like a promising partnership, but then did not turn out to be that at all. Karen Bourrier (12:07): Can you tell us a little bit more, Kanika, about Nollywood? Like, what are the typical features of a Nollywood film? Kanika Batra (12:13): Well, it really depends. Nollywood has been around for a long time, if one thinks of contemporary examples of Nollywood cinema, such as the ones which are available on Netflix, a few of which are available on Netflix. Karen Bourrier (12:29): Yes, tell us what to watch on Netflix. Kanika Batra (12:31): Those are rather slapstick comedies. Those are focusing mostly on family dramas, you know, or the drama that family is. Karen Bourrier (12:46): So its thematically similar, at least to her work within the family. Kanika Batra (12:50): Thematically similar and in fact, her 2012 play Belong is set in Nigeria. And I think it has a lot of stark Nollywood characters. You know, there is, there is this foreign son returning home, the prodigal son returning home, the mother who doesn't really approve of the sons foreign wife, the mother also has an adopted son who is involved in local politics. There is also the stark director, the megalomaniaclocal local chief whose also very corrupt, you know, and it's not so much comic as dramatic in a gory kind of a way, you know? Karen Bourrier (13:37): In a gory way? Oh no, what happened? Sorry, we shouldn't spoil it in case people want to go watch on Netflix. But I was picturing, when you said that Nollywood was slapstick that the political son is slipping on banana peels or something, but no apparently not. Kanika Batra (13:55): It ends with his murder, you know? Um, and so -- Karen Bourrier (13:56): Spoilers. Kanika Batra (13:56): <Laugh>. Spoilers! Kathryn Holland (14:02): Spoiler alert, it's okay! Kanika Batra (14:04): There is that element of Nollywood influencing her dramatology, but I also think that it has to be placed in a certain context where there are some of the characters that she is depicting are clearly drawn from British life, you know, and Nollywood has that element too, though. You know, there will always be a foreigner in one of the Nollywood films you know, either as a romantic interest or as a comic character, as a sidekick to the main characters. So again, I don't know where Nollywood begins and where the Black British influence ends or the other way around, I think we cannot take this writers work in isolation from their multiple cultural influences, of family, of cinema beyond the borders of Britian, of lives lived by teenagers on the streets of London, you know. Both various manifestations of Blackness in the British context, whether those be the manifestations in the sort of stereotype ways of Black criminality or in other ways of Black aspirations to bourgeois lifestyles. Karen Bourrier (15:34): Kanika, a major theme of our podcast has been basically how to make it as a woman writer. So what are the material circumstances that help women to become writers when they're facing sexism, the patriarchy, systemic racism. Is there anything you can think of that would have helped Agbaje in her career along these lines? Kathryn looks like she was about, like I took the question out of her mouth. Kathryn Holland (15:58): No, this really more of a comment than a question ha-ha, which is that Agbaje's spoken repeatedly about the importance of financial stability of like wealth in advancing her career. Karen Bourrier (16:12): Oh, and isn't she known for having kept her job for a very long -- her day job for a really long time? Kathryn Holland (16:16): And I think quitting it at a pivotal moment! Karen Bourrier (16:19): Kanika, you're the expert though, tell us about this. Kanika Batra (16:23): Well, so again, you know, making it in this context, when one is a dramatist, making it usually involves getting your plays performed, you know. And because writing is one aspect of it, but then putting it on stage is the other aspect of it. So, Agbaje is one of the many playwrights, many, many playwrights who got their break at The Royal Court. Karen Bourrier (16:49): Is there anything that's special about the Royal Court that would have made it a particularly propitious place for her play to be performed or any special support that they offered? Kanika Batra (16:59): Well, she was part of a group I think which was getting an opportunity to receive some training as part of a young writer's workshop. I believe that was the break that got her affiliated with the Royal Court. So she was among a cohort of people, all of whom were represented, whose works were performed at the Royal Court once they had received some mentorship and training. And this is not unusual, you know, this is a trajectory which the Royal Court has maintained for as long as it has been in existence. It is known as an experimental theater which takes chances with new playwrights so that previously Debbie Tucker Green received the Olivier award for Born Bad. Kanika Batra (18:01): And her play was also performed at the Royal Court, and this is an honor Agbaje received as well in 2007, the Olivier award, for Gone Too Far!, so I think that's one mode which provides young playwrights with venues for their work. However, I think Agbaje has been quite eclectic because she has worked with a bunch of theater companies. Of course, she's consistently continued to work with the Royal Court, but among the other companies that she's worked with is the Tricylce Theatre Company which actually came out with a collection of plays -- three plays, and Agbaje's play, Detaining Justice was one of those plays. It was a collection which was focusing on different institutions in Britain. One of which was the prison system, one of which politics- Agbaje's play was focusing on the immigration system. Kanika Batra (19:02): So in other words, she has been involved with these production venues, which have taken a chance on experimental work, which have provided a showcase for her new work. She's also worked with the very reputed Black theater company Talawa theatre company, and the importance of these venues for showcasing work by emerging playwrights cannot be overstated. There is many, many people who are successful as playwrights or as filmmakers that have been associated with some of these independent companies at an early stage in their careers. But now more recently, of course, Agbaje has recieved commissions from the National Theater, which, you know, in terms of playwrights career, that's the peak of their careers. Kathryn Holland (20:10): Right. Kanika Batra (20:10): So starting off from experimental small venues and then moving into the mainstream, they are commissoned from the National Theatre which she has recieved. So then I want to say that whether these affiliations are not implicitly or explicitly mentioned by playwrights, they are really, really crucial to the work of emerging artists of colour. Kathryn Holland (20:34): We've been talking a lot about communities, nodes, institutions, you mentioned a moment ago, Kanika, about the publication of some of Agbaje's work. If listeners were going to read one piece by her, which would you recommend and what would it be? Kanika Batra (20:52): Well, I would recommend the piece that she produced in collaboration with the Tricycle Theater Company, and that would be Detaining Justice. When I read critical material, I don't find that discussed very often, but I think it's one of the best pieces of theater that she has written. It is about an immigrant whose name is Justice and he's from Zimbabwe and he's seeking asylum in UK. But his story of political persecution has already been used by his sister who has received asylum in the UK and Justice is seeking asylum. His case has not been decided as yet, in fact, he's being held in a detention center. And so there's a lot going on there -- there's talk about migration, both illegal and legal migration. Kanika Batra (21:19): There's also a bunch of station cleaners in the play, all of whom are migrants, Black and white, who are the source of some comedy in the play, but also the source of much serious discussion about underground racism that people experience when they're working in blue collar jobs and when they are of a different skin colour. There's also a middle class lawyer and his assistant who are trying to process Justices' case through the immigration system. So there's a lot going on there, I think it's a very well constructed play, it has a great plot line and it has a surprising conclusion, which I shall not give away! Kathryn Holland (22:40): Ah, alright! Karen Bourrier (22:40): And a very well-named main character! Kathryn Holland (22:43): I know we could keep talking and talking, but I think that is an ideal note on which to end, thank you so much for being with us, Kanika. Karen Bourrier (22:50): Thanks, Kanika, bye! Jessica J Khuu (23:10): Orlando is a podcast that aims to extend the conversation surrounding writing by women, its history, and its conditions of possibility. This series is edited and produced by Jessica J Khuu, with the help of Christie Hurrell, and co-hosted by Karen Bourrier and Kathryn Holland. Additional resources and information on our amazing guests and contributors will be listed in the description below. Please take care and we'll see you next time.
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Orlando: A Podcast on Women's Writing
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Bourrier, Karen
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Holland, Kathryn
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Holland, Kathryn
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Hurrell, Christie
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" Episode 3: Bola Agbaje / Kanika Batra", 2021, ( CU110655700) by Bourrier, Karen,Holland, Kathryn. Courtesy of Libraries and Cultural Resources Digital Collections, University of Calgary.
https://doi.org/10.11575/DC/8RS2-KG32
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