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Episode 2: Lady Mary Wortley Montagu / Isobel Grundy
Episode 2: Lady Mary Wortley Montagu / Isobel Grundy
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Episode 2: Lady Mary Wortley Montagu / Isobel Grundy
This is Orlando, a podcast about the history of women's writing from medieval times to the present.
This episode is about sexism, ableism, and satire in the eighteenth century. We interview Isobel Grundy about Lady Mary Wortley Montagu, an aristocratic writer who lived from 1689 to 1762.
English majors will recognize Montagu as the writer who responded to Jonathan Swift’s poem “The Lady’s Dressing Room,” which presents an unflattering portrait of women’s bodies, with some satirical verses of her own. Montagu’s speaker implies that Swift takes his frustration out on women in poetry because he cannot keep up an erection. The poem ends with the immortal couplet: "I'm glad you'll write. / You'll furnish paper when I shite."
Montagu has been in the news lately for an unusual reason: she introduced the first inoculation to England. When she travelled to Turkey as the wife of a diplomat, she learned of a folk practice among women in which a small amount of live smallpox was used to trigger an immune response. Scarred by smallpox herself, Montagu took on the male medical establishment, which was skeptical, and inoculated her own young children, starting a fashion in English aristocratic circles.
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Transcription
Karen Bourrier (00:16):
I'm Karen Bourrier.
Kathryn Holland (00:18):
And I'm Kathryn Holland. This is Orlando, a podcast about the history of women's writing from medieval times to the present. This episode is about sexism, ableism and satire in the 18th century. We interview Isobel Grundy about Lady Mary Wortley Montagu, an aristocratic writer who lived from 1689 to 1762.
Karen Bourrier (00:40):
English majors will recognize Montagu as the writer who responded to Jonathan Swift's poem The Lady's Dressing Room - which presents an unflattering portrait of women's bodies - with some satirical verses of her own. Montagu's speaker implies that Swift takes his frustration out on women in poetry because he cannot keep up an erection. The poem ends with immortal couplet: "I'm glad you write, you'll furnish paper when I shite."
Kathryn Holland (01:04):
Montagu has been in the news lately for an unusual reason. She introduced the first inoculation to England. When she traveled to Turkey as the wife of a diplomat, she learned about folk practice among women, in which a small amount of live smallpox was used to trigger an immune response. Scarred by smallpox herself, Montagu took on the male medical establishment, which was skeptical, and inoculated her own young children, starting a fashion in English, aristocratic circles.
Karen Bourrier (01:33):
This is Orlando, a podcast about the history of women's writing from medieval times to the present.
Kathryn Holland (02:00):
So welcome everyone! It's wonderful to have is our guest today, Dr. Isobel Grundy, who is professor emeritus at the University of Alberta and research director of the Orlando Project.
Karen Bourrier (02:12):
Hi Isobel. It's nice to see you. So you're going to talk to us today about Lady Mary Wortley Montagu. It sounds like she's from Downton Abbey or something like that. It's a very grand title. So we're wondering who she is, and what drew you to her in your research career?
Isobel Grundy (02:30):
Yes. Her name is a burden to me. She was called "lady" to signify that her father was a peer, and he went up to the scale like mad, constantly promoted. Her husband had a double [barrelled name] and there we are. She's a writer, an 18th century writer. She was about 11 when the 18th century dawned. She self identified as a writer. And that's why I am interested in her. I love her writings. Although just at the moment, her claim to fame is foregrounded: the one that she was the person who introduced the inoculation jab, the immunization against a disease by getting a tiny bit of it voluntarily or on purpose. She was the person who brought that towards Western medicine. It had been a folk practice in North Africa and the Eastern Mediterranean countries, but she started Western medicine, which is what we have today, on doing that. So every single vaccination or immunization in the world by modern methods is due to her.
Karen Bourrier (03:40):
That is fascinating. Can you tell us a little bit about how she came across this practice? And it's great that she's getting her moment in the limelight right now.
Isobel Grundy (03:50):
It really is. There's a lot of interest in her right now. It was a folk practice in what we call the Middle East, and it was carried out by old women. They injected with the live smallpox virus, which they had somehow discovered would give you immunization. In China, they already had a system too, but China was not in contact with the Western world about things like this. And in China, you powdered the vaccine. I mean, powdered the virus and sniffed it up your nose.
Karen Bourrier (04:21):
Oh my goodness.
Isobel Grundy (04:21):
I don't know anything else about that, but it doesn't sound good.
Karen Bourrier (04:25):
No, that is how, sometimes how they give vaccines today too, as well, right? Yeah.
Isobel Grundy (04:30):
Yes. Well, in North Africa, they took the live stuff from the horrible pustules all over a sufferer, and they made a tiny little scratch with the needle and applied a little tiny quantity, and they did this to kids mainly, and the small child would develop a dozen or 20 or a couple of dozen spots and they'd feel slightly under the weather for a few days. And then they were better, and they wouldn't get smallpox,
Karen Bourrier (04:57):
And they would live, which was very good.
Isobel Grundy (04:59):
Yes.
Karen Bourrier (04:59):
Yeah and she came - am I right in understanding that she came across this practice, she was traveling with her husband who was the diplomat to Turkey? This is fascinating, right? So she was very aristocratic and had these opportunities.
Isobel Grundy (05:13):
Yes. She was aristocratic, but she was a girl. So of course, all the power and influence money in the family went to her brother, who then died of smallpox before he was 21.
Karen Bourrier (05:23):
Oh! So she had a personal interest in this vaccination.
Isobel Grundy (05:26):
That was one of the reasons. And the other was that she'd had it herself very badly. They didn't expect her to survive, but she did. And in fact, she was horribly scarred by it, and still recovering when her husband was appointed ambassador. So whereas most ambassadors' wives would sit and wait for 20 years till their guy came home again, she said, "I'm going too."
Karen Bourrier (05:48):
Oh, good for her!
Isobel Grundy (05:48):
She took her three-year-old son, and he was inoculated while they were in Turkey.
Karen Bourrier (05:54):
Wow.
Isobel Grundy (05:54):
Daughter was born in Turkey and was too little, and also had a nurse who hadn't had smallpox. They understood that it was infectious, but they didn't know anything about it. They didn't understand what it was at all at that date. And once they were back in England, other Western diplomat people had inoculated their kids while they were out in the Middle East, but nobody had tried it in Europe. And the next time there was a bad epidemic - well, it was a pandemic, because it was in North America, as well as Britain. And, Lady Mary got the guy who had been surgeon on the embassy and said, "please, I want you to inoculate my daughter." And he said, "I can't do that. I've got my career to think about. If anything goes wrong, that - I'm finished." But he consented to do it with an audience of distinguished doctors watching him, to bear witness and so forth. And it all went fine.
Karen Bourrier (06:56):
She must've been such a, sorry, I'm interrupting you a little bit, but she must've been such a powerful personality to be able to convince people of her knowledge as a woman to do these inoculations.
Isobel Grundy (07:08):
I think that's right. That she - also, really, her connections. I mean she was very bright. Her father was a member of the Royal Society and knew a lot of distinguished medical people, so there was that. There were good guys and bad guys among the doctors. Many of the doctors were absolutely raving antivaxxers when confronted with it.
Karen Bourrier (07:31):
Sure. Yeah. Well, I mean, it makes sense if vaccines had never been introduced to this point, right. It sounds really scary.
Isobel Grundy (07:38):
Her friends were, you know, people with small children, of her age group, who were at the top of society. So when they did their kids, it kind of spread it.
Karen Bourrier (07:49):
Sure.
Isobel Grundy (07:50):
In Boston, there was a very remarkable man, Cotton Mather, who heard about it from his Black enslaved guy called [Onesiforus]. And he said "at home in Africa, we have this practice". And in Boston, they did about 500 people, and then the city fathers pronounced it against the will of God -
Karen Bourrier (07:59):
Ew.
Isobel Grundy (07:59):
Unlawful, and Bostonians went back to dying of it.
Karen Bourrier (08:14):
I wish this didn't sound so familiar to us today, Isobel!
Isobel Grundy (08:18):
It is just horrible how it has become so familiar. It's really extraordinary. But I think at that point, her social connections were really very, very helpful. If she'd been Mary [Ponts] and had inoculated her daughter in Britain, nobody would have taken any notice. And if they had, it would have been quelched, I'm sure.
Karen Bourrier (08:38):
Can you tell us a little bit more about Lady Mary as a writer? When did you first encounter - oh, sorry, go ahead, Kathryn.
Kathryn Holland (08:45):
I was just thinking about the smallpox in London and that Lady Mary was involved with the, I think what was then identified as an epidemic, in the early 1720s. And so I'm curious too, about what was happening in her writing life around that time? Or beyond that.
Isobel Grundy (09:02):
Yeah, that is very, very interesting. She'd been writing since she was - well from 14. There's a wonderful manuscript. It may be a digression, but I have to quote you the full introduction: "I question not, but here is very many faults. But if any reasonable person considers three things, they will forgive them. One, I am a woman. Two, without any advantage of education. Three, all these were wrote by me at the age of 14." So, you know, she was self identifying as a woman and a poet at 14, which is pretty impressive.
Karen Bourrier (09:41):
That is great, yeah.
Isobel Grundy (09:41):
It's interesting that it's exactly, I mean, we're in a centenary now, but she had written travel lessons while she was abroad. She wrote letters home to all kinds of people, friends, and family, but she carefully kept copies. She was envisaging this as a travel book, and letters were a very popular form for travel books.
Karen Bourrier (10:03):
And is she now - sorry - is she now most known for those letters? Because as I was preparing for this -
Isobel Grundy (10:10):
She became - she became known for them. They were the first, uh, of her works to be published with kind of fanfare and her name, after her death. And she had a very remarkable friendship with Mary Astell, the famous feminist, and Mary Astell tried to persuade her to publish them, but she didn't want to publish them. So a lot of people read them in manuscript clearly, and Astell wrote a preface and afterward, which is pretty impressive.
Karen Bourrier (10:41):
Yeah. So can you tell us a little bit about- maybe this has changed, but the way that I first encountered Lady Mary Wortley Montagu was in her conflict with Pope. Which it sounds - it was horrendous, right? She is mocked in the Dunciad and basically called a whore? Which unfortunately is also still familiar to us today. So can you tell us a little bit about that conflict and what your view on it is?
Isobel Grundy (11:09):
Yes. Well, my view is they each wanted something from the relationship and what he wanted was the status, the connections, the upperclass-ness.
Karen Bourrier (11:17):
And - and he got it by calling her a whore? Or?
Isobel Grundy (11:20):
Well no. This is the early stages we're on.
Karen Bourrier (11:23):
Okay.
Isobel Grundy (11:23):
Several very distinct stages. And she wanted from him recognition as a poet, as an equal intellectually, not literally.
Karen Bourrier (11:32):
Okay. So even if they're having this conflict where they're insulting each other, and she's saying -
Isobel Grundy (11:37):
Well no, no insults in the beginning, absolutely not.
Karen Bourrier (11:40):
Got it.
Isobel Grundy (11:40):
They admired each other. She wrote Town Eclogues, which were social satires on gay young things in London - no, golden young things, wrong terminology. And he wrote The Rape of the Lock, and John Gay was in it too. And he wrote The Beggar's Opera, and they were all doing this as a kind of gang of three. And then Lady Mary went off to Turkey, and she left. Nobody knew how long she would be away. And Pope sent her letters in her absence, which became more and more amorous and erotic.
Karen Bourrier (12:16):
Hmm.
Isobel Grundy (12:16):
Now it was always tradition in scholarship to say, "ah, she was so beautiful, ah he loved her, listen to these letters! He is baring his soul". But I've exposed female undergraduates to these letters and nearly all of them say, "yech!" In fact, I haven't met anybody who wouldn't have - anybody young, female - who wouldn't have classified them as kind of stalking. Kind of persecuting by letter.
Karen Bourrier (12:45):
Interesting.
Isobel Grundy (12:45):
And the further away she went, the more daring he got. And then her husband was recalled, and she was coming back again. So this had been okay at a distance, but once she got back, there were then - I could go on forever, but you'll just have to edit me - one episode was that before she got back, she received a letter from him with an anecdote of two young lovers, agricultural workers, who are out in the hayfield and got struck by lightning and killed. Terrible story.
Karen Bourrier (13:21):
While having sex?
Isobel Grundy (13:21):
Pope made this -
Karen Bourrier (13:21):
Or - no, sorry.
Isobel Grundy (13:21):
Pope made this - well, Pope wrote a very sentimental poem about their death.
Karen Bourrier (13:27):
Sorry. This is what I picture when you're saying they were out in the hayfield.
Isobel Grundy (13:30):
Yeah. Well there you are -
Karen Bourrier (13:33):
Is that the intimation?
Isobel Grundy (13:33):
Thunderstorm - you won't understand this with the climate here - but thunderstorm, you're out in the fields, you get struck by lightning. And Pope made it a sign of really they were so exceptional that God struck them and took them to himself.
Karen Bourrier (13:50):
So it wasn't a punishment for fornication because, this is where my - no? Okay, this is where my imagination is going.
Isobel Grundy (13:58):
That was the way Lady Mary took it.
Karen Bourrier (13:58):
Oh!
Isobel Grundy (13:58):
Lady Mary took it to be completely satirical. And she said, no, no, it was great. They were going to get married. They're very happy at this point. If they got married, they would have been miserable. So it was nice of them.
Karen Bourrier (14:09):
So it was good that they got struck by lightning.
Isobel Grundy (14:09):
Now they are happy in their doom, for Pope has wrote upon their tomb. Now that's not - not what Pope was expecting. Pope had sent her his poem, saying "they will be honored by a tear from the finest eyes in the world." And this clearly got her goat. Pope also wrote a baudy pat couplet about them saying, "here lie two poor lovers who had the mishap, the very chaste people to die of a clap."
Karen Bourrier (14:40):
That's a good pun.
Isobel Grundy (14:41):
Venereal disease, but he didn't send this Lady Mary. Anyhow, that is -
Karen Bourrier (14:44):
How did their relationship deteriorate?
Isobel Grundy (14:47):
It deteriorated. Some say that she borrowed sheets from him and returned them unlaundered. I find this hard to believe, but it's the kind of thing that got circulation in those days. And another thing that, well, they were politically opposed. That's -
Karen Bourrier (15:05):
Okay.
Isobel Grundy (15:05):
- wouldn't have done it, I think. But she had a very close friendship with Lord Harvey, who was bisexual, kind of effeminate in his manner, and a political power on the opposite side from Pope. And he was a wonderful guy, one of my heroes in a way, but Pope attacked him almost even worse than Lady Mary, and went for him on effeminacy, and general perversion.
Karen Bourrier (15:35):
Okay. So some homophobia going on here.
Isobel Grundy (15:38):
I think he was really, really riled by Harvey's success, his friendship with Montagu. I don't think it was sexual between them at all. They shared the same love object later on. But Pope had lots of reasons to get mad with her. And basically she was an uppity woman and she wasn't doing what he had intended. And on her side, he got irritating, and she made fun of him.
Karen Bourrier (16:03):
And - and you write that her reputation - so they both attacked each other. But her reputation has suffered more posthumously than his, for being -
Isobel Grundy (16:15):
I think so.
Karen Bourrier (16:15):
- uppity. Yeah.
Isobel Grundy (16:15):
He - he attacked her first, but she had become notorious over smallpox. But she was also notorious as somebody who dressed flamboyantly, who moved in intellectual circles. And sexual accusations about her just circulated everywhere. And I'm not sure what the basis was, she must've had a sort of devil-may-care manner to her, I think.
Karen Bourrier (16:44):
And she was punished for it.
Isobel Grundy (16:45):
She was unconventional to the core, and she knew a lot of people who had quite colourful sex lives or were - hmm, kind of hovering between the two sexes in one way or another. And she was generally just regarded as - hmm - fair game, I think, really by conventional people wanting to keep society on the straight and narrow.
Karen Bourrier (17:14):
Can you tell us a little bit more about how your understanding of Lady Mary Wortley Montagu has changed over the course of your career?
Isobel Grundy (17:23):
Yes. Interesting. I suppose some aspects of her have come to appeal to me more. I find I have that experience with her, that one has with important writers, that you reread them and something different comes out from last time.
Karen Bourrier (17:41):
Of course, yeah.
Isobel Grundy (17:41):
As you age and develop yourself. I absolutely love her childhood writings and I see more in them than I used to.
Kathryn Holland (17:50):
What are they about? And are they, are they poetry exclusively?
Isobel Grundy (17:53):
They're quite varied. Some of them are quite conventional pastoral poetry. She rather endearingly writes pastoral poetry until suddenly there's a lot of rain and everything floods, and she goes to London and she starts writing something completely different. and there's a little poem about having been caught out writing: "what have I to do with love and wit," and you do wonder if it's just that she was writing love poetry or if she was doing something else unacceptable.I kind of repented some recantation poem - it's only about eight lines long, but it's absolutely intriguing. But I don't think I've changed about that, but I think I keep finding new things in what she writes. I think there was a period during which I couldn't see at all why she would have attracted to the enmity she did. And I think, having gone away and come back again, I realize how extremely irritating she would have been to many people. She was confident, she sort of led with her chin a good deal, she didn't care who she offended, yeah.
Karen Bourrier (19:13):
Can I ask you a little bit, Isobel, about, so the - going back to the attacks on Pope for a second - the attacks that Pope made on her were extremely misogynist, but she kind of went back and had these really ableist attacks on him, because he had a hunchback, right? So what do we make of that now from a 21st century perspective?
Isobel Grundy (19:35):
It's hard, it's a big leap for a 20th century person because satire in those days was absolutely no holds barred.
Karen Bourrier (19:43):
I think the 18th century as very mean. But maybe -
Isobel Grundy (19:47):
Yeah. And Pope was incredibly mean. Maybe because I'm so familiar with his attacks on Montagu, I find his attacks on some other women kind of even more unforgivable. And - well, they're not - that's the awful thing, is they're not unforgivable because he - he's so good. He's so brilliant with words that he has you every time. For instance, a poet named Elizabeth Thomas, who's again, a very fine poet. And she had once choked on a chicken bone that got stuck in her throat. And it caused her digestive and kind of swallowing troubles, really the whole rest of her life, it was a, it was a serious internal accident and it was physicality, and it was kind of physically disgusting. What he makes of that in poetry is just dreadful. And the way he went for Lord Harvey on sorts of sexual, you know, inadequate, well, masculinity grounds. And of course Pope was deeply insecure about his own masculinity because he was very small, he was deformed in appearance. Yeah, he had tuberculosis of the spine. It also meant that his organs got kind of crushed and he was in constant pain. He had all kinds of reasons to sympathize with him, and I'm sure Montagu would have felt sympathetic in the very early stages when they were friends. But she certainly - yeah, no holds barred. You looked for the weakness and you went for it.
Karen Bourrier (21:26):
Wow.
Isobel Grundy (21:29):
Yes.
Karen Bourrier (21:31):
So - oh, go ahead Kathryn, yeah.
Isobel Grundy (21:33):
I taught a graduate course once of whom the major subject was Pope, and one person in that class was disabled in a wheelchair. And she was the only person in the class who kind of stood up for Pope and said dismiss the whole question of whether he was morally justified in writing his satire, saying who cares if it was morally justified, let's look at what he wrote. It was very interesting.
Karen Bourrier (22:01):
That is fascinating. That a person who was a wheelchair user -
Isobel Grundy (22:03):
Yeah. And she didn't stand up for him on grounds of his disability, but she just went straight past that in a more sympathetic way than other people would.
Karen Bourrier (22:12):
It's interesting to hear the language we use - and I'm not throwing anyone under the bus - but, standing up for, and other, you know, understanding that has kind of an ableist undertone to it in a way. Right? Yeah.
Isobel Grundy (22:25):
Interesting. Pope himself used the image of heroic fighter for himself, as a satirist, scourging vice and encouraging virtue. So he used that language of kind of male active, muscular heroism, like mad, as did a number of women's satirists, too.
Karen Bourrier (22:48):
Interesting.
Kathryn Holland (22:50):
I'm thinking about our listeners who are probably entirely intrigued by the long arc of Montagu's career, her many relationships. Isobel, and also, you know, your extensive experience with her body of work, if listeners were going to read one poem by Montagu, which would you recommend? And why would it be -
Karen Bourrier (23:12):
Or a letter! It could be anything.
Isobel Grundy (23:13):
I thought a lot about this. Just one, eh? I thought you were going to say two. But yes she's very, very various in her life experiences, in her friendships and the places she lived in, really everything- and also in the writing. If I were - it depends how much time the potential reader has got. The most interesting texts I would recommend, I think to a modern feminist would be her long prose fiction Docile- Princess Docile. She wrote it French, I translated it with a great deal of help into English. It's available only in expensive hardback, but it is available online. There's something called InteLex Past Masters, which has her works, and it's in a volume called Romance Writings. It's a kind of autobiography, a kind of allegory, a kind of moral tale, not really a novel. If only it had been printed, I think the entire history of the novel might've been different. If you're in it for reading a sort of shortish novel length, then I'd say, go for that one. But if it were a poem, I thought and thought about this, she had a genius for one liners, and there are a number of poems that I find personally moving. And there are the feminist poems, which are feisty and terrific. But I nonetheless think the one I would have to recommend to a completely casual reader, knowing nothing about her, is another very shocking and scatological poem: "The Reasons that Induced Dr. Swift to Write a Poem called The Lady’s Dressing Room."
Karen Bourrier (24:58):
Oh, I know that one. That one is great, yeah. Very scatalogical, indeed.
Isobel Grundy (25:07):
What did you think of it?
Karen Bourrier (25:09):
It was probably 15 or 20 years ago? But you know, I think I just - when you say the 18th century is no holds barred, I can only come to specialize in the much more prim and proper, although not always Victorian, period. So yeah, these things are shocking.
Isobel Grundy (25:26):
So there she is confronted with a man who writes what she takes to a misogynist poem about the horror of the female body.
Karen Bourrier (25:34):
That's the one where Celia is taking off her fake eyelashes.
Isobel Grundy (25:38):
"Celia, Celia, Celia, shits." It's the one about sniffing in the, in the clothes stool. Anyway, the way you would teach it in a class is to try to suggest that he's making fun of this young male lover who supposes that women are non-physical, and will never recover from discovery that his beloved shits. But that's the kind of interpretation you use when you want students to engage.
Karen Bourrier (26:07):
I think, indeed, that's how I was taught it. Yeah.
Isobel Grundy (26:08):
Well, I think that's true, but on the other hand, Montagu was offended by this picture of the human - of the female body as disgusting. And what does she do? She imagines a scenario and Swift is impotent, and that's why he has it against women. So it's a fun poem and it's technically a lovely poem because of the way it imitates Swift's own manner. It has sort of moralizing digression halfway through it. Self-referential about its own images, and that's exactly the kind of thing Swift loves to do. So. Yeah.
Karen Bourrier (26:43):
Well that's great. Well, thank you so much for joining us, Isobel.
Kathryn Holland (26:49):
Thank you.
Karen Bourrier (26:49):
This has been really fun.
Isobel Grundy (26:51):
Okay, thank you. It's been terrific.
All (27:09):
Bye!
Jessica Khuu (27:09):
Orlando is a podcast that aims to extend the conversation surrounding writing by women, its history, and its conditions of possibility. This series is edited and produced by Jessica J Khuu, with the help of Christie Hurrell, and co-hosted by Karen Bourrier and Kathryn Holland. Additional resources and information on our amazing guests and contributors will be listed in the description below. Please take care and we'll see you next time.
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" Episode 2: Lady Mary Wortley Montagu / Isobel Grundy", 2021, ( CU110697242) by Bourrier, Karen,Holland, Kathryn. Courtesy of Libraries and Cultural Resources Digital Collections, University of Calgary.
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